Samuel J Doyle (doylesj@newton.ccs.tuns.ca) wrote: : Well, all this flaming over the Hordes is crazy. I mean comparing to the Juzam and : all that has gotten out of hand. The thing is that the Hordes are an awsome type : II card. For those people concerned about losing the card at random then play with : Libraries of Leng. The Juzam is not a type II card so stop the comparisons!!! And : yes it is fairly easy to put the Hordes out in turn one and even easier in turn two : which is very useful. So everyone give it up and stop the flaming. I haven't been flaming; nor have I been saying that people should be using Juzams instead (I play exclusively Type II myself, as a matter of fact). I have simply been saying that the Hordes are not all that great a card. It is simply *not* "an awsome type II card." It's usable, but if you are not careful it will burn you badly. Going for a turn 1 Horde is a great way to kill yourself. Against a good opposing deck, your opponent will handle the Hordes probably by his second turn, third turn at latest. After he has done so, you will be out five cards to his one (maybe two). A Mind Twist, except you did it to yourself! Count the number of ways a Horde can handled with one or two mana: Swords to Plowshares. Terror. Paralyze. Spirit Link. Two Lightning Bolts. Unsummon (or Word of Undoing). Boomerang. Hydroblast (or Blue Elemental Blast). Circle of Protection: Red. Giant Growthed Savannah Lions. Savannah Lions and a Lightning Bolt. Repentant Blacksmith. *Any* 1-mana creature with a Righteousness. Don't play a creature and Balance. Any 1-mana creature and a Red Ward. Brainwash. And that was just with a quick glance through my collection. I came up with something for every color except green. I'll allow a Giant Growthed Bears for that. Any green deck that can't generate three mana on its second turn is seriously sick. I also only gave solutions that handle the problem permanently or semi-permanently. You can always throw sacrificial weenies in front of the Hordes until you can come up with something better. Fog is a green player's best friend in this sort of situation. Any decent deck will come up with *something.* The conclusion: you can *not* afford to invest 5 cards in one creature. That creature, *any* creature is just too damn fragile to invest all your resources into him. Hordes are good card for play on turn 3 or 4 to give a little extra turn of speed to decks that expect to have little trouble with running out of cards. Say, that Howling Mine/Winter Orb deck you've been working on. The Hordes are a good threat and help to distract your opponent from the lock your deck is working on. You'll not likely miss the discard. Chris Mattern